smart plugs???

[Mike Scott]

Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.

I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{


So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?

TIA.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?

If you use a Sonoff device (may be the DIY version, or maybe one you've
replaced the factory firmware) there are python utils to control them

<https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/basicr2/>

<https://gist.github.com/Derkades/>

[Mike Scott]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so,
how unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled
from linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?

If you use a Sonoff device (may be the DIY version, or maybe one you've
replaced the factory firmware) there are python utils to control them
<https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/basicr2/>
<https://gist.github.com/Derkades/>

I've had a look at the online manual for the UK version

https://sonoff.tech/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/User-Manual_S60TPGEN-V1.0.pdf

It raises a couple of questions... it says a 13A breaker needs to be
installed to protect the device. AFAIA all UK kit must have its own fuse
to protect itself and its own power cord; the ring main typically just
has a 30A breaker to protect the house wiring. It does sound as if it's
not UK standards compliant, which is concerning.

Also, the setup procedure still seems to need their own app to get
things going. Again, no doubt running only on the latest and greatest
smart phone ;-{

[Mike Easter]

Post by Mike Scott
I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.

TP-Link Tapo re linux is what I was looking for.

Here are two conflicting replies seen in a TP-Link forum:

https://community.tp-link.com/en/smart-home/forum/topic/528792

Post by Mike Scott
I would like to control two Tapo P100s using a workstation with
Ubuntu 20.04 as OS. Is there a way to do that?
Yes, you can. First you need to install a javascrit runtime Node.js
https://nodejs.org/en/ Then you can install Homebridge which is a
javascript server emulating Homekit API

https://github.com/homebridge/homebridge/wiki/Install-Homebridge-on-Debian-or-Ubuntu-Linux

Post by Mike Scott
Then you can install a Tapo plugin for Homekit to control Tapo
devices https://www.npmjs.com/package/homebridge-tapo
above
I used this combination both on Debian and macOS machines which
worked well. Now I use Apple Silicon Macs which native iOS Tapo app
runs just like an iPhone.
Currently, our Tapo plug can only be managed by Tapo application.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
TIA.

I can send you the boards to make one. Fits a Pi Pico W so you can talk
to it over wifi.

You only need to write the code to set it up :-)

[Pancho]

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
TIA.

I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a cloud
service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan connection
and you are exposed to the cloud service provider disappearing.

I use an open source firmware called Tasmota, which can be installed on
some devices but not others. I have installed it in a Sonoff device,
maybe 5 years ago, but it was a pain.

More recently I have bought Athom plug sockets with Tasmota
pre-installed. The ones I have include energy meters as well as a switch.

Tasmota gives you a HTTP webserver to control the plug, and also allows
you to communicate via mqtt (message queue protocol).

I have bought 10 of these a few years ago. I bricked one (maybe because
it didn't work properly), another one part of the energy meter doesn't
work, another one the switch doesn't work. So 7 good, 2 partial, one
total failure.

I use them all the time, in a minute I will turn my bed's electric
blanket on.

My knowledge is a few years old, maybe there are new and better solutions.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Pancho
I use an open source firmware called Tasmota, which can be installed on
some devices but not others. I have installed it in a Sonoff device,
maybe 5 years ago, but it was a pain.

I think that's the idea behind the Sonoff "DIY" devices ... no soldering
required to get Tasmota installed ...

[Pancho]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Pancho
I use an open source firmware called Tasmota, which can be installed
on some devices but not others. I have installed it in a Sonoff
device, maybe 5 years ago, but it was a pain.

I think that's the idea behind the Sonoff "DIY" devices ... no soldering
required to get Tasmota installed ...

Thx, I'd not heard of Sonoff "DIY" mode. It appears to be a REST API
interface so that the device can be controlled directly on the LAN,
rather than via the cloud (eWeLink). (REST is good, but there is no
MQTT, so these Sonoff devices are different from Tasmota)

AIUI, the latest Sonoff Smart Plug S60 doesn't support "DIY" mode. The
Sonoff BASIC R3 does support DIY (which is the successor of my painful
BASIC R1), but it's an inline switch not a plug and it doesn't have a
power meter.

[Mike Scott]

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a cloud
service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan connection
and you are exposed to the cloud service provider disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)

This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we want
your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this case.

I've found python modules for actually running the thing - but
apparently the device's initial setup still needs tp-link's cloud services.

And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

Looks like Argos can have their device returned, although I doubt anyone
there will have the nous to understand the issues.


(FWIW I assumed there'd be a web interface to set it up, with their app
as a convenience wrapper for that. But no; it looks as though they use
BT for initial device discovery and tcp for actual use. Seems madly
complex to me.)

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a cloud
service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan connection
and you are exposed to the cloud service provider disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we want
your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this case.

Actually there is.

It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS'
network connected gadgets

Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average
coinsumer? Doan mak me larf!
--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

[D]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a cloud
service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan connection and
you are exposed to the cloud service provider disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their "cloud"
service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we want your data'.
There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this case.

Actually there is.
It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS' network
connected gadgets
Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average coinsumer?
Doan mak me larf!

I use tor to give me a globally unique name where I can access my stuff
behind NAT as a Tor hidden service.

I've been thinking that perhaps I might be able to use yggdrasil to get a
ipv6 address to do the same, without the latency of tor.

Has anyone tried it, or have some other methodology that does not depend
on dyndns or similar web sites?

[Rich]

Post by D

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a
cloud service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan
connection and you are exposed to the cloud service provider
disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we
want your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this
case.

Actually there is.
It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS'
network connected gadgets
Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average
coinsumer? Doan mak me larf!

I use tor to give me a globally unique name where I can access my
stuff behind NAT as a Tor hidden service.

99.1% of the total users would be incapable of achieving what you are
doing with Tor, even if given infinite time to set it all up.

[Rich]

Post by Rich

Post by D

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a
cloud service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan
connection and you are exposed to the cloud service provider
disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we
want your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this
case.

Actually there is.
It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS'
network connected gadgets
Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average
coinsumer? Doan mak me larf!

I use tor to give me a globally unique name where I can access my
stuff behind NAT as a Tor hidden service.

99.1% of the total users would be incapable of achieving what you are
doing with Tor, even if given infinite time to set it all up.

I don't disagree that most users are not likely to be able to set up
complex things, but realistically, companies should always make it
possible to bypass their cloud service.

Full agreement. Sadly the commercial entities don't seem to provide
that ability except in rare cases.

Offer users the option, if they want it. But never force it or make it
mandatory. Philip's Hue does not require an account at all to use their
smart hub and lights/devices. In fact, their app can operate without any
internet connection at all. (You can disconnect your internet cable from
your router and turn off data on your phone and set the entire thing up
locally with the app, without any internet or online account creation.)

Which is how all the other IoT stuff should be too. Sadly, too many
companies don't even think to offer the "non-cloud" option.

[Mike Scott]

Post by Rich
Which is how all the other IoT stuff should be too. Sadly, too many
companies don't even think to offer the "non-cloud" option.

A bit like user interfaces. A cli-oriented interface can easily be
wrapped in a gui; but if all that's on offer is a gui, tough cheese for
those needing cli/scripted access.

[D]

Post by Rich

Post by D

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a
cloud service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan
connection and you are exposed to the cloud service provider
disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we
want your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this
case.

Actually there is.
It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS'
network connected gadgets
Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average
coinsumer? Doan mak me larf!

I use tor to give me a globally unique name where I can access my
stuff behind NAT as a Tor hidden service.

99.1% of the total users would be incapable of achieving what you are
doing with Tor, even if given infinite time to set it all up.

So? I made no claim that 99.1% should be able to achieve it, so I do not
understand your sentence.

[Mike Scott]

I don't disagree that most users are not likely to be able to set up
complex things, but realistically, companies should always make it
possible to bypass their cloud service. The ruse is "people are too
stupid to do this" as an excuse for cloud services being obligatory.
Even though, they actually aren't. Just give users the option to bypass

.....

Offer users the option, if they want it. But never force it or make it

.....

This is how it should be. And for users that want all that cloud stuff,
it can be optional available to them.
Anyone that thinks these things should be forced is just perpetuating an
abusive system or just lacks knowledge on how these things work.

(OP)

+1.

With the added note that control of all these cloud-based gizmos is
probably located in China. Perhaps not the best of ideas in the current
climate.

[D]

I don't disagree that most users are not likely to be able to set up
complex things, but realistically, companies should always make it possible
to bypass their cloud service. The ruse is "people are too stupid to do
this" as an excuse for cloud services being obligatory. Even though, they
actually aren't. Just give users the option to bypass

.....

Offer users the option, if they want it. But never force it or make it

.....

This is how it should be. And for users that want all that cloud stuff, it
can be optional available to them.
Anyone that thinks these things should be forced is just perpetuating an
abusive system or just lacks knowledge on how these things work.

(OP)
+1.
With the added note that control of all these cloud-based gizmos is probably
located in China. Perhaps not the best of ideas in the current climate.

I read a fascinating article about bot nets and and old control servers on
expired domains. The security firm took ownership of those old domains and
found about 4000 infected servers still active.

I imagine that same might happen with internet connected devices. When the
company closes down, someone registers their domains and might be able to
do some sinister things.

[Carlos E.R.]

...

Post by Mike Scott
And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
registered with Google).

You could give the permission so that the app runs, and once finished
with the config, remove the permission for your ease of mind.

...

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Carlos E.R.
...

Post by Mike Scott
And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
registered with Google).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a deal-breaker right there.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Carlos E.R.
...

Post by Mike Scott
And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
registered with Google).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a deal-breaker right there.

Unless google has your bank account details and permission to charge you
what you buy, or some other arrangement that they have (I haven't looked
recently, maybe paypal) there is no way an app with "in-app purchases"
permission can sell you anything.

The permission is quite safe with adults ;-)

[D]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Carlos E.R.
...

Post by Mike Scott
And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
registered with Google).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a deal-breaker right there.

WTF?! Since when did that ever become a criterion? Sounds like some kind
of business manager should be gently removed from his job for making that a
requirement.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by D

Post by Carlos E.R.
...

Post by Mike Scott
And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)

It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
registered with Google).

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a deal-breaker right there.

WTF?! Since when did that ever become a criterion? Sounds like some kind
of business manager should be gently removed from his job for making
that a requirement.

Maybe you are misunderstanding. Let me rewrite:

In any case,you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a
banking account registered with Google) in order to actually do a purchase.

[Rich]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Pancho
I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a
cloud service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan
connection and you are exposed to the cloud service provider
disappearing.

(Thanks to all for replying)
This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
"cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we want
your data'.
There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this case.

There is no actual /need/, provided the buyer is slightly technically
inclined.

For the 99.1% of their users, who are lost if their icon for FB moves
5mm away from the location it has always been located, it provides a
way for TP-Link to get them setup and working (and working from both
local to their home network and from somewhere remote).

Which would be the reason given if the maker was pushed. Reality is,
they also love the money available from selling the data treasure trove
they can hoover up as well.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
TIA.

If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay
Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information

1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

[Alan K.]

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires using a phone to set it up
- and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of
date for their software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone else's.
Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from linux without all the
garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
TIA.

If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel
£10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information
1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
That's the coolest. Damn! I wish I had that back when! Of course Linux Mint and good computers
etc weren't available when I was a huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

I breadborded and built a bunch of stuff (digital clock from ICs) back in those days. Had a board
we plugged into our Commodore 64 that allowed me to program ePROMS. Fun days.

[Mike Scott]

Post by Alan K.

Post by Chris Elvidge
If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay
Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information
1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course
Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge
DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.

The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction, especially for unattended operation.

It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

[Mike Scott]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.

He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to get
that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.

He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to get
that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

What is illegal?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.

He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to
get that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

What is illegal?

Appliances that draw more than 1.5kW from memory.

Oh. No. They have changed it

"All electrical equipment has an assigned electrical power (small or
large) that is expressed in Watts (W) or kilowatts (kW). If we use
several devices simultaneously, the electrical power of each adds up,
until we reach a point where we can no longer use more equipment at a
time so that this sum exceeds the electrical power we have contracted.
This is the maximum power that can be consumed simultaneously.

When the maximum power is exceeded, the new digital meters disconnect
the service and the home runs out of electricity supply. The most
economical and efficient way to use electric energy is to have a low
contracted power, as this will optimise the use of the equipment and
reduce the fixed cost of the electricity bill."

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using
a ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric
heater.

He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to
get that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

What is illegal?

Appliances that draw more than 1.5kW from memory.
Oh. No. They have changed it

On "modern" houses sockets are rated for 16A, being schuko type like
maybe the entire EU.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko>

You may be confused because I have mentioned in conversations that my
entire (old) house is limited to 10A (actually 15 because design flaw of
the meter-limiter), because it is an old installation that doesn't have
a modern certification.

On a certified house you may easily have 10 KW, sometimes 15. More if
you contract the three phases.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
"All electrical equipment has an assigned electrical power (small or
large) that is expressed in Watts (W) or kilowatts (kW). If we use
several devices simultaneously, the electrical power of each adds up,
until we reach a point where we can no longer use more equipment at a
time so that this sum exceeds the electrical power we have contracted.
This is the maximum power that can be consumed simultaneously.
When the maximum power is exceeded, the new digital meters disconnect
the service and the home runs out of electricity supply. The most
economical and efficient way to use electric energy is to have a low
contracted power, as this will optimise the use of the equipment and
reduce the fixed cost of the electricity bill."

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Carlos E.R.
On a certified house you may easily have 10 KW, sometimes 15. More if
you contract the three phases.

I have 23kW and my own substation! Part of the result of paying tens of
thousands to have the overhead cable across the garden removed. No
transformer on a pole, A substation in the garden instead.

I wish I had gone three phase...I had that option.

But seriously, before the greens and politicians started fucking with it
the UK grid was amongst the best in the world and the house wiring
actually is, in my opinion.

US wiring horrifies me.

European is mostly pretty good.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Carlos E.R.
On a certified house you may easily have 10 KW, sometimes 15. More if
you contract the three phases.

I have 23kW and my own substation! Part of the result of paying tens of
thousands to have the overhead cable across the garden removed. No
transformer on a pole, A substation in the garden instead.

Oh, here (Spain) they charge you for the number of kilowatts in your
pipe, so people without lots of money do adjust to the minimum. A
typical home (which means an apartment) has 3.45Kw. Next step is 4.6Kw.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I wish I had gone three phase...I had that option.
But seriously, before the greens and politicians started fucking with it
the UK grid was amongst the best in the world and the house wiring
actually is, in my opinion.
US wiring horrifies me.
European is mostly pretty good.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Mike Scott
I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet.

No, it's exactly the limit of a UK 13A socket (assuming the nominal
230V, in practice most will be above 240V) but they do tend to suffer
when used with long running at full load (poor contact -> high
resistance -> heating -> charring -> fire)

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

I wouldn't trust a smart switch on a long-term load such as an immersion
heater, there are 20A versions, I think I'd prefer using a smart switch
to drive a chunkier contactor and hardwired terminals.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Mike Scott
I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet.

No, it's exactly the limit of a UK 13A socket (assuming the nominal
230V, in practice most will be above 240V) but they do tend to suffer
when used with long running at full load (poor contact -> high
resistance -> heating -> charring -> fire)

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

I wouldn't trust a smart switch on a long-term load such as an immersion
heater, there are 20A versions, I think I'd prefer using a smart switch
to drive a chunkier contactor and hardwired terminals.

Well I have yet to code up my board that has a simple 20A relay.

I'd probably use a GTO thyristor with an opto-coupler than a contactor.
It's cheaper

[Lars Poulsen]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

If I remember correctly,

US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.

This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.

But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

[Lars Poulsen]

Post by Lars Poulsen

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

If I remember correctly,
US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

Arrgh ... I did NOT remember correctly. While the fuse on the panel in
UK is 27A, the plugs are fused for max 13A, i.e. 3.0kW.

Post by Lars Poulsen
This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.

Yet, 3kW is a great tea kettle.

Post by Lars Poulsen
This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.

Actually, this correction makes it make less sense.

Post by Lars Poulsen
But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Lars Poulsen

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

If I remember correctly,
US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

No.

UK plush are fused by law at 13A max. 3kW. The outlets are not rated for
more than that, and if used at that a lot may end up arcing

The *rings* to which they are connected are typically fused at 32A so
that more than one appliance can use them.

Lighting circuits are typically limited to 16A.

More power is permitted if it is to a dedicated appliance and a
dedicated circuit breaker.

The intention is as follows.
1/. The house will have a 60A or 100A fuse in the supply. This limits
the maximum power the house can draw.
2/. Lights are wired on a star or daisy chain spur with the breaker
representing the maximum safe current for the *wire*.
3/. Special appliances will get their own private circuit and breaker.
Typically a cooker might be on a 45A spur, permanently wired in, but
that is all that is on it, and the cable size must be matched to that.
4/. General purpose sockets are on 30A or 32A breakers and must be wired
as a *ring*. This means that te cable does not have to carry the full
current. Any ring can delver about 7kW

Every socket is rated at 13A only, but you can have many many sockets on
a ring. This limits appliances to 3kW normally.

The general principle is to fuse at the 'consumer unit' the central
'fuse' box, to prevent *house* wiring catching fire ONLY.

The appliances are fused to protect *their * wiring

And the internals are also typically fused if electronic.

All user accessible sockets must be earthedm and the ring circuit
ensures diverse earth routes.

Post by Lars Poulsen
This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.
This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.

Well they are not 'massively huge'.
And its a fair price to pay for probably the best wiring regulations in
the world.
Britain doesn't often get stuff exactly right but this one is.

The US arrangements horrify me.

Post by Lars Poulsen
But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual.

Absolutely illegal in the UK. Except for specialist applications like
maybe a EV charger.

Post by Lars Poulsen
It does require a
heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
stoves and EV chargers.

Horrifying. 50A for a washing machine? Not in the UK. 13A max unless you
are on industrial three phase or it has a dedicated circuit assigned to
it and is hard wired.

Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them

Post by Lars Poulsen
are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

No reason not to wire your house up for 220V and a british wiring
system. And by british washing machines :-)

A guy I knew in S Africa wired his house with German sockets - he was
German. I used UK extension leads to run my UK kit off when I was there.

[Paul]

Post by Lars Poulsen

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

If I remember correctly,
US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.
This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.
This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.
But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

Tsk. North American homes have two voltages within the house.
It is a center tapped 230V system. If you take the center tap
and one hot, that's 115V. If you measure between the two hot leads,
that is 230V.

--- hot1 \___ bedroom1 The low power outlets are
--- neutral / balanced across the two sides
of the center tap. This helps
--- hot2 \___ bedroom2 balance the loads across the
--- neutral / pole transformer. Since at least
three homes run off one pole can,
--- hot1 \___ bedroom3 the balancing continues on neighbour
--- neutral / homes.

--- hot2 \___ bedroom5 115V wall outlet
--- neutral /

--- hot1 \
--- neutral \___ 230V NEMA 14-50R wall outlet (behind stove, behind dryer)
--- hot2 /
--- SGND 230V power is hard wired to central AC or BEV chargers (if present)

https://www.amazon.ca/Charging-Receptacle-Designed-specifically-Applications/dp/B0CS8FFC1W

hot1 neutral hot2 safety-ground

https://www.amazon.ca/Leviton-279-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00009W3AA

NEMA 14-50R

Operated at 80% derating, the NEMA likely supports 40A loads (at 230V).

I went downstairs and checked.

I have a 230V 30A quad position breaker for one load (four hole outlet on wall).
I have a 230V 40A quad position breaker for the central air (hard wired) [compressor hard start].

I have a 230V 20A dual position breaker in hand, for a planned electric water heater.
(4.6kW rating, for a 3.5kW water heater on an electrical system with too high a voltage)

I'm on the edge of town, with rural quality wiring in an urban setting.

The measured voltage is 244V on the 230V circuit. Which means
for any sort of electric fire (the clothes dryer), the element
runs warmer than it should.

I think we deserve something a little more generous than
a piddly 1800W rating. I checked the nameplate on the clothes dryer,
and it is 230V 24A and the plate recommends a 30A breaker,
and the 230V 30A quad is provided for that purpose. And since
my mains is actually 244VAC, I expect I'm drawing a bit more
than the 24A number. Breaker doesn't trip in any case. The only
breakers I've had trip, are the 15A bedroom ones.

The air conditioner, doesn't draw anywhere near the breaker rating.
It's only a two ton. The original air conditioner took a bit to start.

I would think a 7kW rating would be fair, because I don't have
any copies of code to argue otherwise. With the panel size,
there may be a diversity limit on drawing too many amps for
a single load, and I think the quad position is as wide as
they're allowed to get.

One brother-in-law, has three 100A service panels in the house.
Two panels for the main house, one panel for the granny flat.
I don't know exactly how many smart meters it takes to measure that :-)
The house is "full of kids", so it's not hard to see where the
power goes. It goes everywhere. Another brother-in-law, runs
a large solar panel setup, so there are likely a few amps going
in the reverse direction there (in summer, when it is sunny).
I don't rate very highly, with my single 100A panel.

Paul

[Paul]

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Alan K.

If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information
1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home construction, especially for unattended operation.
It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

You can use a relay, to switch a relay.

It's like amplifiers in a sense.

You need to know the "pull-in current", to make
the "power relay" work. The relay is like a solenoid,
in that there is a coil of wire, a metal slug, and when
you put enough current into the coil of wire, the metal
slug moves and causes the relay contact to close.

If the relay is DPST (Double Pole Single Throw), then
you could disconnect hot and neutral on a 240V 13A load.
That sort of thing. Safety ground remains connected.

The relay on the USB module, you power the output contacts
from a power source providing the volts and amps the
coil on the power relay needs.

And you can test the power relay, without mains connected
to the secondary side. You can listen for the solenoid metal
slug moving and the relay contacts making the "ker-chung" noise.
If you use DC current for the relay coil, then the relay
coil will not hum.
DPST Double Pole Single Throw

\
Hot Line-side ---x x--- Load side Hot (Fusing and fixtures
as appropriate)
\
Neutral Line-side ---x x--- Load side Neutral
a----- ||
\ || Power
/ || Relay (mains-rated contacts
b---- ||

With only signal connected to a & b, you listed for the
right sound effect. Later, you plug in the two ends on the
mains part of the project (the upper part). to switch the load.
The left hand side is a plug that goes into the wall. The electric
fire on the right, plugs into an outlet box on your wood strip with
the relay screwed to it.

Need to figure out amount of current into relay coil
at a and b, to achieve "pull-in" of the solenoid. The
more hefty the relay and its "return spring", the more
current needed on the coil to move the slug.

Paul

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Paul

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Alan K.

If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information
1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home construction, especially for unattended operation.
It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

You can use a relay, to switch a relay.

No need., You can use a transistor to buffer a PIO output and drive a
sensibly big relay directly

I sourced some 20A 250V relays from china that seem OK

JQX-15F-DC05V-A 4PIN

Is the magic keyword.

They take about a watt (***@5V) to drive them - beyond most PIO
(16mA=80mW for the pico) but easily obtainable with a single transistor
amplifier.

Strangely Europe doesn't make shit like this - you end up with massive
contactors at a huge price instead.

[wicklowham]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Paul

Post by Mike Scott

Post by Alan K.

Post by Chris Elvidge
If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue
Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
Interface: apt install usbrelay
usbrelay --debug for information
1, 2, 3, 8 channels available

https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course
Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a
huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction, especially for unattended operation.
It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

You can use a relay, to switch a relay.

No need., You can use a transistor to buffer a PIO output and drive a
sensibly big relay directly
I sourced some 20A 250V relays from china that seem OK
JQX-15F-DC05V-A 4PIN
Is the magic keyword.
(16mA=80mW for the pico) but easily obtainable with a single transistor
amplifier.
Strangely Europe doesn't make shit like this - you end up with massive
contactors at a huge price instead.

A good solution might be a 'solid state relay ',which is an opto-coupled
device for 3 - 30 Volt -DC input combined with a triac output for up
to 240V-AC
I have used these as intermediate switch between low voltage DC systems
and AC powered devices.

Frank in County Wicklow -Ireland

[yossarian >]

Yes, they exist. One of them is this one.
https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-plug-s-gen3
I have experience with one like this. You use your browser to control them. There is no
cloud if you don't want to. It connects to your wi-fi network. Just type address into your browser,
and you are ready to go.


On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:32:47 +0000

Post by Mike Scott
Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so, how
unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled from
linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
TIA.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

[Mike Scott]

Post by yossarian >
Yes, they exist. One of them is this one.
https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-plug-s-gen3
I have experience with one like this. You use your browser to control them. There is no
cloud if you don't want to. It connects to your wi-fi network. Just type address into your browser,
and you are ready to go.

They do a UK version too, which helps. Price not too unearthly either,
although significantly more than tp-link.

I'll check the product out, thanks.